Ending Persecution
An Interview with Knox Thames on Going All-In for the Cause of Religious Freedom
“Repression comes in different shapes and varieties. Some forms of persecution are readily apparent, while others fail to fit preestablished U.S. government boxes. . . . Much like mutations of COVID, variants of persecution manifest in diverse ways.”
(Knox Thames)
Q. Knox, thanks for doing this interview with me and congratulations on the release of the book last month. I want to begin by asking how you got into this work and what you hope this book will achieve in the coming years?
A. I became a religious freedom advocate through God’s providence. My professional journey was one I couldn’t have imagined before law school. The son of teachers in Kentucky, public service was instilled in me early on. After attending a small Baptist school in Kentucky, I moved to Atlanta to resettle refugees as an AmeriCorps volunteer with World Relief. For the first time, I had friends who had suffered horrifically for being from the wrong faith, tribe, or community. I felt called as a Christian to help “the least of these.” I moved to Washington, DC, to focus on international human rights law. Through law school internships and networking, I landed my first job at the U.S. Helsinki Commission tracking religious freedom violations in the former Soviet Union. Twenty-five years later, I’m still doing that work. My career in public service, especially during my time at the U.S. State Department, deepened my understanding of international religious freedom issues and the need for robust American leadership.
I draw upon these experiences in my book, Ending Persecution: Charting the Path to Global Religious Freedom, where I provide a comprehensive framework for understanding the scope of religious persecution. But I don’t stop at defining the various types of religious persecution, as I also offer recommendations for new actions. I hope the book will resonate with policymakers, activists, students, and readers interested in international affairs as I weave together personal stories, policy recommendations, and insights from my career. I pray the book inspires greater awareness and action against religious intolerance and encourages the United States and like-minded governments to adopt more robust measures to end religious persecution.
Q. I appreciate the background! In the book, you write that “[e]very belief community is a minority somewhere, and vulnerable members must confront repression from governments, extremists, or both.” Can you talk to me about the importance of advocating for all religious groups?
A. Every faith community is persecuted somewhere. A pandemic of persecution impacts people of all faiths and none. Durable success will only come by advocating for expansive religious freedom for everyone, as there cannot be full religious freedom if freedom of conscience is only for some. When we stand up for the rights of one group, we create a stronger foundation for protecting the rights of all—fostering an environment of mutual respect and mutual rights. By supporting vulnerable members of different faiths, we uphold their dignity and contribute to a more inclusive society where diverse beliefs can coexist peacefully and individuals can pursue truth as their conscience leads. It’s essential we recognize how the fight for religious freedom is interconnected; when we defend the rights of our own and others, we reinforce the principle that everyone deserves the freedom to practice their beliefs without fear of discrimination or violence.
This approach is not only a moral imperative, but also deeply rooted in the teachings of the Bible. The Bible is replete with calls for justice, regardless of race or creed. For instance, the prophet Micah urged God’s followers to “seek justice, love mercy, and walk humbly” without any conditions or exclusions. In Jesus’ earthly ministry, he exemplified how we should love God and our neighbors through the parable of the Good Samaritan, a hero who transcended religious and ethnic boundaries to help a stranger. In Paul’s letter to the Galatians, he issues a dual charge: “Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers” (Gal. 6:10). As Paul advises, we must do better at helping our own, but we must also improve how we do good to all. The body of Christ should be known for our concern for all, both Christians and non-Christians. We must do more to remember our brothers and sisters on the frontlines of faith, persecuted for their commitment to Christ. And we must also remember their non-Christian neighbors are also suffering for their beliefs. We should pray and advocate for anyone facing religious persecution.
To explore this further, we launched Christians Against All Persecution (CAAP Network) to inspire Christians to pray and advocate for anyone facing religious persecution. Any individual persecuted for their beliefs is a tragedy worthy of prayer and advocacy. We hope to build a movement. The CAAP website has resources and information to help you understand the challenge, lead you in prayer, and take action. Their newsletter can keep you informed and provide prayer and advocacy opportunities. We are called to pray and advocate for anyone facing religious persecution. We hope others will join us in this effort.
Q. Let me ask you a little bit about the process of advocacy. Nathaniel Hurd once noted in his presentation at Notre Dame that getting religious liberty right domestically impacts how it’s perceived abroad. You mention the importance of America taking lead on this issue. Why do you think the United States stands unique in this mission (e.g., our history, our virtue, our influence)?
A. While a hotly contested issue domestically, Americans of all faiths and none enjoy immense religious freedoms unparalleled in the world. That’s not to say we don’t have work to do at home. However, the United States is uniquely positioned to lead on the issue of religious freedom abroad due to its foundational role in our history and expansive protections. Our nation was built on the idea of protecting individual rights, including the right to believe—or not believe—without interference from the government.
In the book, I reference how the founding fathers created space for diversity of beliefs and did not want to connect protections of citizenship with faith. For instance, just months into office as the first President of the United States of America, George Washington wrote a public letter to the Touro Synagogue in Newport, Rhode Island. He stated forthrightly, “All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship.” He dismissed any implication that rights were dependent on “the indulgence of one class of people” over whether “another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights.” In the most quoted passage, he proclaims, “for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance.” These were welcomed words, as many early immigrants came to the United States fleeing religious persecution.
Today, America’s global influence means we can be a force for good for religious freedom. Our actions and policies also set a precedent for other nations; when we uphold strong religious liberty standards at home, we reinforce the notion that these rights are universal. Our leadership can inspire other countries to adopt similar protections, as well as support our diplomacy pressing for reforms.
Q. You mention a fascinating connection between the influence of religious leaders in places like Pakistan and India and the rise of democratic persecution of minority voices. You later incorporate this theme into the quandary that surrounds blasphemy laws. One of the underlying mechanisms you mention that fuels these movements is elections (“it’s a vote-getter”). I appreciate that you bring nuance to these issues when you write that “[c]ountering each form requires determination, commitment, resources, and specific approaches to address aspects unique to each variant.” This is a big question, but where do you start when assigned to meet these challenges?
A. Combating religious persecution in a democracy is especially challenging, as oftentimes leaders campaigned on a platform of hate and exclusion, so their policies are fulfilling campaign promises. Pakistan and its notorious blasphemy law demonstrate this challenge. An extreme minority wants the law expanded and enforced in draconian ways, which intimidates elected leaders. When faced with the challenges of religious persecution and the complexities of blasphemy laws, the first step is to gather comprehensive information about the local context and the specific dynamics at play. This means engaging with local faith leaders, community organizations, and activists who have firsthand insights into the issues affecting their communities. Additionally, advocating for policy changes, raising awareness about the consequences of blasphemy laws, and supporting initiatives that promote dialogue and tolerance are critical. A multifaceted approach—combining grassroots efforts with policy advocacy—can help address these deeply rooted issues more effectively. But it will take time and persistence.
Q. Let me ask you something more specific on the tension between advocacy and local custom. You have a powerful quote in your discussion of blasphemy laws comparing them to a “cancer spreading through a body.” One of the challenges I’ve heard in speaking with Christians in Pakistan is the need to protect those who have been wrongly accused by a radicalized majority sect. Even if the government and the courts pass sensible laws and engage in due process, those who find justice are still made to return to a hostile living environment. It seems that the only solution is for these minority religions to leave the country, but that is easier said than done for a host of reasons. So, how do you navigate these challenges knowing that international pressure does little to relieve the threat of local mob justice, especially when law enforcement is afraid or unwilling to keep the peace?
A. Navigating the challenges of blasphemy laws and the climate of hostility faced by minority religions is incredibly complex. Even when rights respecting laws are in place, a climate of impunity can develop if perpetrators are not held accountable. In other words, the pervasive threat of mob justice creates an environment of fear that can make it impossible for individuals to freely enjoy religious freedom. However, I do believe international pressure can prompt government action to address immediate threats posed by extremist groups and dictators. I’ve seen diplomacy work, especially when backed by consequences.
Yet, in these situations, it’s also essential to focus on grassroots actors in local communities who advocate for safety and rights. This involves not only raising awareness and supporting victims, but also building strong alliances with local religious leaders. Their influence and voice are crucial in fostering interfaith dialogue and supporting organizations that provide legal assistance to victims. Moreover, raising awareness on the international stage about these injustices can help mobilize resources and bring additional pressure to bear to insist on reforms. I like to say effective advocacy is built upon a three-legged stool of governments, civil society actors, and religious leaders. Only when all three legs are present and strong will durable change come.
Q. Somewhat related to the previous question: you talk throughout about the need to not only talk-the-talk, but also walk-the-walk. Specifically, you write: “To change the calculation of oppressors, we must make them feel the bite of penalties, or they will have no reason to stop.” Can you talk to me about the importance of courage in taking difficult steps to rectify egregious forms of injustice?
A. If we say human rights matter, it must matter with friend and foe alike. Such a position requires moral courage and willingness to challenge the status quo, which can be intimidating. However, steadfast advocacy coupled with consequences can change the calculus for oppressors.
In the book, I emphasize the need for “consequential diplomacy.” Simply speaking out against oppression, while important, is rarely enough. The United States must back our words with actions that hold oppressors accountable. Otherwise, our statements risk becoming meaningless, and we lose credibility. When we apply penalties against those perpetrating abuses, we defend our values by sending a clear message that such behavior will not be tolerated. Not every effort will succeed. However, even if we fail to change conditions in one country, we must remember that standing firm in our commitment to religious freedom can create a ripple effect that strengthens the fight for religious freedom elsewhere. Whoever wins the next election, we must ensure our diplomacy, military alliances, and trade relations reflect our value of religious freedom.
Q. In one of your chapters, you write how “religious heritage preservation could educate an entire society about its diverse past and inoculate them from extremist messaging.” Can you talk to me about what you’ve found regarding the role of memory for community restoration?
A. History is layered, and historic sites are a physical reminder of how other cultures and beliefs existed before us. Around the world, sacred heritage sites tell of a diverse but forgotten past. They demonstrate a history of living together despite profound differences. While these stories were never perfect, sacred sites provide an indigenous inflection point to discuss the importance of respecting diversity and others’ beliefs. Often overlooked, they can build bridges from the past to a brighter future tomorrow. We have found that sacred sites can promote peaceful pluralism and respect for different beliefs in a locally acceptable, flexible, and sustainable way, as focusing on a community’s own history fosters interreligious peace and appreciation of religious pluralism. How? By reminding communities of their pluralistic path and asking how we can apply those lessons to our diverse reality today.
Q. I want to finish by asking you something more practical. You quote John Lewis for the proposition that freedom is a “continuous action we all must take, and each generation must do its part to create an even more fair, more just society.” You are obviously well-positioned for this work, but how can folks with regular 9-to-5 jobs contribute to the fight for religious freedom?
A. Religious persecution will be the issue of the 21st century. People and faiths are intermixing as never before in human history. Such diversity can promote creativity or spur fear of the “other.” We must encourage ways to live together in diversity, not saying all roads lead to heaven but recognizing the rights of others to pursue truth as their conscience leads and working to defend that right. Therefore, we all can play a vital role in the fight for religious freedom, especially lawyers. While the issue of religious persecution is distant from us, we can start by educating ourselves about the issues and sharing that knowledge within our communities—whether through conversations with friends, local events, or church engagements. My book provides information and ideas that can hopefully help.
The United States has an indispensable role to play in advocating for religious freedom and human rights. We should all be proud of how we advance our values in foreign affairs at a level no other nation does. While never perfect, it reflects well on ourselves as a nation that we have devoted so many resources to promoting fundamental rights. However, being good isn’t good enough in light of the pandemic of persecution sweeping the world. Everyone needs to contact their elected representatives to advocate for policies that protect religious freedom. We must continue to insist our nation recommit to this worthy task. We can also use our voices to pray and advocate for anyone facing religious persecution.
Purchase the book on Amazon or through Notre Dame Press (ND Press is offering 40% off through November; use discount code 14CEC24 when checking out).
Knox Thames is an international human rights lawyer, advocate, and author who has dedicated his career to promoting human rights, defending religious minorities, and combatting persecution.
Over his 20 years of service in the U.S. government, Knox held several key positions advocating for freedom of religion or belief, including at the State Department and two different U.S. government foreign policy commissions. Knox has deep experience regarding South/Central Asia, the Middle East, Europe, and U.S. foreign policy relating to human rights. Serving in the Bush, Obama, and Trump administrations, he has worked at the intersection of global affairs, religion, and human rights.
In April 2023, Knox joined Pepperdine University as a Senior Fellow, directing the new Program on Global Faith and Inclusive Societies from the Washington DC campus. In addition, since 2020, he has worked as a non-resident Senior Visiting Expert at the United States Institute of Peace.
For more on Knox, check out his website.